Comments on: Romania and Bulgaria from Miss Anon http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/ English, Rationalist and Liberal Conservative Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:00:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.1 by: Dave http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15459 Sat, 30 Sep 2006 20:57:42 +0000 http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15459 But Gav if you I don’t see any problem with the EU merging with the Asian, African and American equivalents eventually, then you do not see a problem with a world government? because thats what it would be. I consider a world government very dangerous and inherently undemocratic. But Gav if you I don’t see any problem with the EU merging with the Asian, African and American equivalents eventually, then you do not see a problem with a world government? because thats what it would be.

I consider a world government very dangerous and inherently undemocratic.

]]> by: Gav http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15422 Sat, 30 Sep 2006 10:39:49 +0000 http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15422 I think the EU may be reformed but I don't think it is right to remain in the EU while we wait for that to happen. I suspect the Conservatives will only make EU withdrawal formal policy when something pivotal starts street demonstrations and civil disobedience. That could be decades down the line... I think the EU may be reformed but I don’t think it is right to remain in the EU while we wait for that to happen.

I suspect the Conservatives will only make EU withdrawal formal policy when something pivotal starts street demonstrations and civil disobedience. That could be decades down the line…

]]> by: Ken http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15413 Sat, 30 Sep 2006 07:30:00 +0000 http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15413 Does your support for the “Better of Out” campaign indicate that you think that it is not now possible to reform the EU. If so do you think that we will see the Conservative parliamentary party following your line of thought? The Conservative line has always been that it is better to be in so that we retain influence and can push the EU in the direction of free trade and away from the federalist agenda. Does your support for the “Better of Out” campaign indicate that you think that it is not now possible to reform the EU. If so do you think that we will see the Conservative parliamentary party following your line of thought?

The Conservative line has always been that it is better to be in so that we retain influence and can push the EU in the direction of free trade and away from the federalist agenda.

]]> by: Gav http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15369 Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:59:31 +0000 http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15369 A world government? No. The EU should be about free trade and free trade will solve the world's economic poor performers. Because the EU is not about free trade and free movement of people and <em>is</em> about politics (and isn't democratic) is the reason for my support of Better Off Out. A world government? No.

The EU should be about free trade and free trade will solve the world’s economic poor performers.

Because the EU is not about free trade and free movement of people and is about politics (and isn’t democratic) is the reason for my support of Better Off Out.

]]> by: Dave http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15362 Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:05:45 +0000 http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15362 i c, so you see the EU as a building block for a world government. Wow, libertarianism meets communism.... again! i c, so you see the EU as a building block for a world government.
Wow, libertarianism meets communism…. again!

]]> by: Gav http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15314 Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:28:22 +0000 http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15314 Dave -- you should know I'm a free trade advocate. I don't see any problem with the EU merging with the Asian, African and American equivalents eventually.... The world's economy would only benefit from free trade everywhere. Dave — you should know I’m a free trade advocate. I don’t see any problem with the EU merging with the Asian, African and American equivalents eventually…. The world’s economy would only benefit from free trade everywhere.

]]> by: Dave http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15281 Fri, 29 Sep 2006 03:38:31 +0000 http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15281 Well by that logic you can ask why not invite the whole world to join the EU? If you have a club or union, its gotta have some rules and identity, if its open to anyone and everything then what is the point being a member? Well by that logic you can ask why not invite the whole world to join the EU?
If you have a club or union, its gotta have some rules and identity, if its open to anyone and everything then what is the point being a member?

]]> by: Gav http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15236 Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:57:30 +0000 http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15236 The question isn't why should Turkey join but why shouldn't it. Europe vehemently does <strong>not</strong> have the same culture in each of its member states. I don't think that there's one 'Islamic' culture any more than there's one 'Western' culture. There's probably not even one 'Shia' or 'Kurd' culture. The truth is cultures develop over long periods of time in geographical areas that can be independent of religion, language and environment. Compare, for example, the Christian countries of northern Europe with the Christian countries of South America. Compare the Islamic culture in Malaysia with that in Egypt or Kuwait. The question isn’t why should Turkey join but why shouldn’t it. Europe vehemently does not have the same culture in each of its member states. I don’t think that there’s one ‘Islamic’ culture any more than there’s one ‘Western’ culture.

There’s probably not even one ‘Shia’ or ‘Kurd’ culture. The truth is cultures develop over long periods of time in geographical areas that can be independent of religion, language and environment.

Compare, for example, the Christian countries of northern Europe with the Christian countries of South America. Compare the Islamic culture in Malaysia with that in Egypt or Kuwait.

]]> by: Dave http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15230 Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:17:47 +0000 http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15230 If millions of American 'christian right' suddenly wanted to move to the UK do you think the Labour party and the MSM would have the same stance as it has now? I certainly don't. Gav, why do you think Turkey should join, more than any other country in the world that is...? Its not a European country, not geographically, not religiously (not that I am religious), not ethnically, not historically. I've nothing against Turks, but strong fences make good neighbours, they have the Islamic culture, most of Europe does not. If millions of American ‘christian right’ suddenly wanted to move to the UK do you think the Labour party and the MSM would have the same stance as it has now?
I certainly don’t.

Gav, why do you think Turkey should join, more than any other country in the world that is…?
Its not a European country, not geographically, not religiously (not that I am religious), not ethnically, not historically.

I’ve nothing against Turks, but strong fences make good neighbours, they have the Islamic culture, most of Europe does not.

]]> by: Gav http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15187 Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:47:00 +0000 http://www.gavpolitics.co.uk/blog/2006/09/27/romania-and-bulgaria-from-miss-anon/#comment-15187 I think, in Miss Anon's defense she is not an "open border advocate" rather she believes in the principles of the EU. I think her argument is misplaced, though. The only reason we have problems with the newer EU countries' populations moving here, really, is because the member states closed their borders (and will again). I am keen on EU withdrawal but I'm not against the supposed basic principles of the EU: freedom of movement within the EU, free trade etc. But at the same time, I think that the eastern European nations that are causing all this concern cannot be ready for membership if their populations are drawn so strongly to come here. When other groups of countries have joined (especially in the 80s when Spain and Greece joined) there was no sudden and massive influx. According with my belief in the principles of the EU (supposed only) the accession of Turkey must be allowed, but only when it's a more successful nation and only once its human rights record is significantly improved. If membership is necessary for these countries to attain this level of economic growth then it will either have been at our (read: yours and mine) expense or through pure serendipity. So, to be clear: - England should withdraw from the EU. - Romania and Bulgaria should only join when they are able to maintain their populations after joining. - Turkey's membership myst be allowed in principle, but it shouldn't happen until it is able to maintain its population after joining. - The UK shouldn't have different rules for access to other countries in the EU or we end up being overrun (sorry Miss Anon). I think, in Miss Anon’s defense she is not an “open border advocate” rather she believes in the principles of the EU.

I think her argument is misplaced, though. The only reason we have problems with the newer EU countries’ populations moving here, really, is because the member states closed their borders (and will again).

I am keen on EU withdrawal but I’m not against the supposed basic principles of the EU: freedom of movement within the EU, free trade etc. But at the same time, I think that the eastern European nations that are causing all this concern cannot be ready for membership if their populations are drawn so strongly to come here. When other groups of countries have joined (especially in the 80s when Spain and Greece joined) there was no sudden and massive influx.

According with my belief in the principles of the EU (supposed only) the accession of Turkey must be allowed, but only when it’s a more successful nation and only once its human rights record is significantly improved. If membership is necessary for these countries to attain this level of economic growth then it will either have been at our (read: yours and mine) expense or through pure serendipity.

So, to be clear:
- England should withdraw from the EU.
- Romania and Bulgaria should only join when they are able to maintain their populations after joining.
- Turkey’s membership myst be allowed in principle, but it shouldn’t happen until it is able to maintain its population after joining.
- The UK shouldn’t have different rules for access to other countries in the EU or we end up being overrun (sorry Miss Anon).

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